English-literate Swedish Engel-GM here. In search for answers and half-truths in order to keep our game running.
Anyway, nice to be here.
Pompe
PS Hi Waffalo!
Poor english speakers... (In search of spoilers)
Greetings to Sweden from me aswell!
<--- look what we've got! It's just for you Swedish folks 
We're working (slowly but constantly) on an English version of the board... (not Swedish yet... but as soon as we got it in English, maybe you can translate it )
As my previous speakers already said: welcome, have fun and don't be afraid to ask any questions. We'll try to answer as good as we can.
Greets,
Uriel
<--- look what we've got! It's just for you Swedish folks We're working (slowly but constantly) on an English version of the board... (not Swedish yet... but as soon as we got it in English, maybe you can translate it
)As my previous speakers already said: welcome, have fun and don't be afraid to ask any questions. We'll try to answer as good as we can.
Greets,
Uriel
How do you portray religiousness/piousness in your game?
I ask because most games tend to, while having clerics and paladins, not be very religious at all. And Engel seem to be a game where the PCs are "fanatics" (indoctrinated/brainwashed engels) and the truth is something more...along atheist sci-fi thinking. I think this is because gamers are secular atheist or possibly agnostic.
However, Engel being the game it is, I would really like to endow pious behaviour. It is after all a behaviour the Engels have "learned" is the best/safest/rewarding way to act.
Never mind it being a bunch of crap. That's beside the point...or...possibly enlightement...which lead on to other things.
Never mind the last sentence – how about religiousness/piousness?
I ask because most games tend to, while having clerics and paladins, not be very religious at all. And Engel seem to be a game where the PCs are "fanatics" (indoctrinated/brainwashed engels) and the truth is something more...along atheist sci-fi thinking. I think this is because gamers are secular atheist or possibly agnostic.
However, Engel being the game it is, I would really like to endow pious behaviour. It is after all a behaviour the Engels have "learned" is the best/safest/rewarding way to act.
Never mind it being a bunch of crap. That's beside the point...or...possibly enlightement...which lead on to other things.
Never mind the last sentence – how about religiousness/piousness?
Hi there again.
Text below contains some "spoilers" I think you already know. But here#s a warning anyway: SPOILERS!
To my mind it is indispensable, that the PCs are absolutely devotional. From their first day on earth, angels are told, that God is their creator and religion is the reason why they are on earth and why people worship them. Why should they believe in something else?
Imagine a rockstar who is fancied by millions of people due to his music playing skills... how could he think, he was anything else than one of the best musicians in the world, when people keep telling him over and over again?
If there was an angel to doubt his/her own origin, his/her existence and God, then he/she would have to have a reason for it. And I think, that (from an inhabitant of the Engel-world's point of view) it is almost impossible to find out some of the "really big secrets".
Consider: They have got literally NO idea, what a computer is. They have heard of technical instruments, but how could they know what technic can do? They never saw any, they only know it's bad and you mustn't touch it, except you're a Raguelite.
I know, many of the players are atheists, but I think, that shouldn't be a problem, if they are good players. If you play D&D for example and chose to be a dwarf, you're not into mining skills aswell.... however I agree, that you can't play Engel properly on a superficial level. Your players would have to accept, that it's inevitable to adopt religious manner for the time while playing the chars. Engel is no "man-I'm-so-cool-and-I-know-what-the-bastards-are-really-up-to"- ats least to my mind it's not. I think Engel is about devotion and about playing a victim who doesn't know it is and therefore is proud of it.
Greez,
Uriel
Text below contains some "spoilers" I think you already know. But here#s a warning anyway: SPOILERS!
To my mind it is indispensable, that the PCs are absolutely devotional. From their first day on earth, angels are told, that God is their creator and religion is the reason why they are on earth and why people worship them. Why should they believe in something else?
Imagine a rockstar who is fancied by millions of people due to his music playing skills... how could he think, he was anything else than one of the best musicians in the world, when people keep telling him over and over again?
If there was an angel to doubt his/her own origin, his/her existence and God, then he/she would have to have a reason for it. And I think, that (from an inhabitant of the Engel-world's point of view) it is almost impossible to find out some of the "really big secrets".
Consider: They have got literally NO idea, what a computer is. They have heard of technical instruments, but how could they know what technic can do? They never saw any, they only know it's bad and you mustn't touch it, except you're a Raguelite.
I know, many of the players are atheists, but I think, that shouldn't be a problem, if they are good players. If you play D&D for example and chose to be a dwarf, you're not into mining skills aswell.... however I agree, that you can't play Engel properly on a superficial level. Your players would have to accept, that it's inevitable to adopt religious manner for the time while playing the chars. Engel is no "man-I'm-so-cool-and-I-know-what-the-bastards-are-really-up-to"- ats least to my mind it's not. I think Engel is about devotion and about playing a victim who doesn't know it is and therefore is proud of it.
Greez,
Uriel
Yes I absolutely agree. My players are in fact really up to it as well. Still, I can imagine there could be many groups where this is a problem.Uriel hat geschrieben:Engel is no "man-I'm-so-cool-and-I-know-what-the-bastards-are-really-up-to"- ats least to my mind it's not. I think Engel is about devotion and about playing a victim who doesn't know it is and therefore is proud of it.
If the players know what the "bastards-are-really-up-to" I think that you do not need to show them much to get them over the fence. That is, I think it is hard to play for a revelation that in fact is no revelation for the players but for their characters.
Part of the game, in my mind, is about finding out your true origin. While that is truly something to discover, the revelation of the grand illusion (you thought to be true) could be...not-so-climactic. Especially not after the first time it's been done.
That said, the not-so-climactic-revelation also sets up every Fellowship to break apart since the fervent belivers won't like what the doubters have discovered. I think it is an absolutely brilliant roleplaying opportunity but also something that many groups strive to avoid (internal PC-fighting and betrayal).
It's almost a Shakespearean set-up (which makes it wonderful) but also makes for tragic endings not inherent to many RPGs. So has anyone dealt with this and let the show take it's tragic course?
When the Ab orders you to take your friend into custody, what has happened?
When ordered to end another Engels life, what has happened? It would seem that this is a guaranteed set up for a tragic end for an NPC-Engel. But how about PCs?
To your previous post:
You should always consider that the angelitic religion is not a christian one. There are no such things as forgiving the enemy or a life after death and so on.
And to the actual:
I've played Engel since the beginning and I really have to say that my PCs never got so far to discover their true origin. Maybe because the rounds didn't last for so long or because they were more interested in discovering the world as it was. The players knew mostly about the secret and still had their fun.
Normally an angel would never harm another angel, but well, what if? Would they really kill another angel, still thinking that the dogmas of the church are true? How could they? If they do, will they undergo the purification themselves?
There are rumours about angels who refused the purification and simply got lost somewhere, fighting the church from inside or stick on their own, try to manage the rest of their life far, far away.
It would also be possible that angels, revealing their true nature won't discuss this with any other being, because they understand that there is no other way to save mankind from the dreamseed.
But tragedy for me is always present. When my 10 year old Gabrielite sacrifices himself for his friends, there is tragedy for me and the others, but not intime (a bit weird, I know... ). Or if he kills some heretics who are not really guilty, just fools in a big game played by some clerics. It's just the madness of the system.
You should always consider that the angelitic religion is not a christian one. There are no such things as forgiving the enemy or a life after death and so on.
And to the actual:
I've played Engel since the beginning and I really have to say that my PCs never got so far to discover their true origin. Maybe because the rounds didn't last for so long or because they were more interested in discovering the world as it was. The players knew mostly about the secret and still had their fun.
Normally an angel would never harm another angel, but well, what if? Would they really kill another angel, still thinking that the dogmas of the church are true? How could they? If they do, will they undergo the purification themselves?
There are rumours about angels who refused the purification and simply got lost somewhere, fighting the church from inside or stick on their own, try to manage the rest of their life far, far away.
It would also be possible that angels, revealing their true nature won't discuss this with any other being, because they understand that there is no other way to save mankind from the dreamseed.
But tragedy for me is always present. When my 10 year old Gabrielite sacrifices himself for his friends, there is tragedy for me and the others, but not intime (a bit weird, I know...
). Or if he kills some heretics who are not really guilty, just fools in a big game played by some clerics. It's just the madness of the system.
Heya, Pompe!
Time for me, too, to give you a warm (belated) welcome to our wonderful forum!
But to get to the topic quickly: I absolutely agree with both you and Uriel (edit: and Michael, who dared to post before I was done writing this!).
Engel is 80% roleplaying (REAL roleplaying well-thought out characters, which makes it so wonderful), 20% scenery/tragedy/heroism and 0% hack and slay.
I, not being a religous person at all, absolutely revel in acting out my engel-characters, making the Michaelite talk big about God's will, cursing at dreamseed as a Gabrielite or making no bones about praying to Uriel to lead the way or let the arrow find its righteous way as a Urielite.
This religiousness or (twisted?) fanatism of all things is what makes Engel great to roleplay.
(WARNING, HINTS AT SPOILERS AHEAD!!)
I have played in a few Pen&Paper fellowships and will not hold forth on what unfortunately went wrong there, but the group did in fact encounter the inevitable and faced the truth. I faced the truth alongside my character at that time and was truly shocked.
Looking back at it, it could have gone better, more cineastically, and it was probably my fault as well (never read any corebooks at that time... big tragedy since my initial gamemaster-made-views on Engel have somewhat changed since reding some things..) that things went straight into this rebel-angel-thing-direction, which I think is a difficult direction and does not pay justice to the game-systems and background when you step on that road with the "wrong" host of players.
I have reflected on Engel a lot since then and come to the conclusion that the game lives on GOOD roleplaying and, yes, good indoctrination. Of course it is fun to have a group uncover bits and pieces of the secret, to lead them in a way that will inevitably cause dispute and argument among the Engel of the group, make them doubt, maybe make them act in a way that does not represent the will of the church - but maybe that of God?
I think slapping the group in the face with the BIG secret about their background too soon is not any good and spoils too much of the gaming fun. Even with a group that consists only of "knowing" players.
I would also think that it is contributing to have a mixed group of players, some who have not yet discovered any secrets and some who have read the books, gasped once in shock and awe and then settled their minds on the idea that indoctrination and piety are major and important aspects of the game. That way it won't go over the top, once the Engel discover any of all the little inconsistencies that the church bases its power on.
However, knowing most of the Engel-secrets (at least the BIG one) had me reflect the game and the gaming-mechanics and, in my very humble opinion, mature to an Engel-player that can handle a well-balanced game and design and play characters that do justice to the system.
...God, that sounds arrogant:
Don't mean it that way.
Just wanted to say that a game of Engel can ripen from "knowing" players who can deal with the problems of the Engel-world way better than a virgin-player..
But the most important thing is... a good player. No matter how much he/she knows. That's my opinion.
So, 'nuff said!
Greetz from
Samael
Time for me, too, to give you a warm (belated) welcome to our wonderful forum!
But to get to the topic quickly: I absolutely agree with both you and Uriel (edit: and Michael, who dared to post before I was done writing this!).
Engel is 80% roleplaying (REAL roleplaying well-thought out characters, which makes it so wonderful), 20% scenery/tragedy/heroism and 0% hack and slay.
I, not being a religous person at all, absolutely revel in acting out my engel-characters, making the Michaelite talk big about God's will, cursing at dreamseed as a Gabrielite or making no bones about praying to Uriel to lead the way or let the arrow find its righteous way as a Urielite.
This religiousness or (twisted?) fanatism of all things is what makes Engel great to roleplay.
(WARNING, HINTS AT SPOILERS AHEAD!!)
I have played in a few Pen&Paper fellowships and will not hold forth on what unfortunately went wrong there, but the group did in fact encounter the inevitable and faced the truth. I faced the truth alongside my character at that time and was truly shocked.
Looking back at it, it could have gone better, more cineastically, and it was probably my fault as well (never read any corebooks at that time... big tragedy since my initial gamemaster-made-views on Engel have somewhat changed since reding some things..) that things went straight into this rebel-angel-thing-direction, which I think is a difficult direction and does not pay justice to the game-systems and background when you step on that road with the "wrong" host of players.
I have reflected on Engel a lot since then and come to the conclusion that the game lives on GOOD roleplaying and, yes, good indoctrination. Of course it is fun to have a group uncover bits and pieces of the secret, to lead them in a way that will inevitably cause dispute and argument among the Engel of the group, make them doubt, maybe make them act in a way that does not represent the will of the church - but maybe that of God?
I think slapping the group in the face with the BIG secret about their background too soon is not any good and spoils too much of the gaming fun. Even with a group that consists only of "knowing" players.
I would also think that it is contributing to have a mixed group of players, some who have not yet discovered any secrets and some who have read the books, gasped once in shock and awe and then settled their minds on the idea that indoctrination and piety are major and important aspects of the game. That way it won't go over the top, once the Engel discover any of all the little inconsistencies that the church bases its power on.
However, knowing most of the Engel-secrets (at least the BIG one) had me reflect the game and the gaming-mechanics and, in my very humble opinion, mature to an Engel-player that can handle a well-balanced game and design and play characters that do justice to the system.
...God, that sounds arrogant:
Don't mean it that way.Just wanted to say that a game of Engel can ripen from "knowing" players who can deal with the problems of the Engel-world way better than a virgin-player..
But the most important thing is... a good player. No matter how much he/she knows. That's my opinion.
So, 'nuff said!
Greetz from
Samael
Yo, my man Samael!Samael hat geschrieben:I think slapping the group in the face with the BIG secret about their background too soon is not any good and spoils too much of the gaming fun. Even with a group that consists only of "knowing" players.
But the most important thing is... a good player. No matter how much he/she knows. That's my opinion.
So, 'nuff said!
Greetz from
Samael
You speak the truth. When planning the BIG ARC of perhaps 20-30 Engel adventures (perhaps 5-10 campaigns) the revelation will of course come along slowly. Whether it be background or the "fata morgana". But I think it will be part of my BIG ARC to reveal it all in the end (and after that I do not know if we continue or if we swap RPG). Well-well, all good things must come to an end.
I'll spin along on similar subjects:
When introducing the past of the characters to the character themselves – do you play flashbacks? Do you describe flashbacks? Or do you do something else entirely?
[SPOILERS AHEAD!]
Yeah, the Big Arc! I am planning something like that with my P&P Engel-group, have them dig into things one by one, uncover evil machinations and deal with doubts and contradictions.
I don't even know, yet, whether I will have them have a glimpse at what their characters truly are.
I didn't like that in my old Engel-group where my character (and me) was told during the fifth or sixth session that "Oh, by the way... you're this and that". Okay, it didn't literally go that way, but it was way too soon and too prompt. Now I know better..
I would base the answer partially on what type of characters there are in your fellowship. Of course, flashbacks, as long as they are cryptic and not too revealing, are a good thing but do not suit every Character alike. Also I would very carefully choose the situation, the timing in this is important to make it grand and the suspicion grow.
Ramielites are great for things like that, I think. Maybe their cathedral of thought changes as they grow older - in a way that reflects their memories. Which, of course, they don't know. But it should be strange enough that the thing changes without them willing it to do so. It might reveal things from their past, childhood memories that feel completely strange but comforting, things like that.
If characters dare to ask NPC characters they think they can trust (old Ramielites that know a lot...) those could hint at a strange belief that the souls of children, who die at a young age, become fragments of Engels. Something like that.
Characters without cathedrals of thought might run into artefacts or Raguelite monachs on the run and gone crazy talking gibberish (the truth?)
Apart from that I would spread little hints at all those weird things, all the contradictions along my story line and watch what will happen. Maybe the players will pick up those hints all by themselves and start to investigate.
I would just make sure that this won't go too fast or in strange directions...
One example: (AND IF RAZIEL READS THIS: DO NOT!!! read further! It'll spoil you my P&P-chronic!!!)
During the course of events in my P&P-chronic an evil inquisitor will use the angels, different fellowships, to lure a host of dreamseed to a diadoche-city... which is of course not the nicest way and I am hoping that my fellowship (or part of it) will take the clue, be shocked about this behavior and start investigating it.
Things like that usually happen during my games. I like hinting at things without saying them....
Yeah, the Big Arc! I am planning something like that with my P&P Engel-group, have them dig into things one by one, uncover evil machinations and deal with doubts and contradictions.
I don't even know, yet, whether I will have them have a glimpse at what their characters truly are.
I didn't like that in my old Engel-group where my character (and me) was told during the fifth or sixth session that "Oh, by the way... you're this and that". Okay, it didn't literally go that way, but it was way too soon and too prompt. Now I know better..
That's a good question.Pompe hat geschrieben: When introducing the past of the characters to the character themselves – do you play flashbacks? Do you describe flashbacks? Or do you do something else entirely?
I would base the answer partially on what type of characters there are in your fellowship. Of course, flashbacks, as long as they are cryptic and not too revealing, are a good thing but do not suit every Character alike. Also I would very carefully choose the situation, the timing in this is important to make it grand and the suspicion grow.
Ramielites are great for things like that, I think. Maybe their cathedral of thought changes as they grow older - in a way that reflects their memories. Which, of course, they don't know. But it should be strange enough that the thing changes without them willing it to do so. It might reveal things from their past, childhood memories that feel completely strange but comforting, things like that.
If characters dare to ask NPC characters they think they can trust (old Ramielites that know a lot...) those could hint at a strange belief that the souls of children, who die at a young age, become fragments of Engels. Something like that.
Characters without cathedrals of thought might run into artefacts or Raguelite monachs on the run and gone crazy talking gibberish (the truth?)
Apart from that I would spread little hints at all those weird things, all the contradictions along my story line and watch what will happen. Maybe the players will pick up those hints all by themselves and start to investigate.
I would just make sure that this won't go too fast or in strange directions...
One example: (AND IF RAZIEL READS THIS: DO NOT!!! read further! It'll spoil you my P&P-chronic!!!)
During the course of events in my P&P-chronic an evil inquisitor will use the angels, different fellowships, to lure a host of dreamseed to a diadoche-city... which is of course not the nicest way and I am hoping that my fellowship (or part of it) will take the clue, be shocked about this behavior and start investigating it.
Things like that usually happen during my games. I like hinting at things without saying them....
Zuletzt geändert von Samael am 27.08.2007 - 15:35, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.